tell the truth or at least don't lie 00:00:00

tell the truth or at least don't lie and the reason for that is that that's a 00:00:03

very good starting 00:00:05

position to straighten out your life 00:00:07

why should your right to freedom of speech trump 00:00:21

a trans person's right not to be 00:00:22

offended i mean look at the conversation 00:00:25

we're having right now 00:00:26

you know like you're certainly willing 00:00:28

to risk offending me in the pursuit of 00:00:29

truth 00:00:31

why should you have the right to do that 00:00:32

welcome mr jordan peterson to from spot in the success 00:00:51

podcast it's an honor to have you here 00:00:52

thank you very much for the invitation 00:00:54

thank you very much uh how does it feel 00:00:56

to be in sweden 00:00:58

um brief i'm only here till tonight 00:01:00

uh it's beautiful i mean we spent tammy 00:01:03

and i my wife and i spent some time 00:01:05

walking around 00:01:07

this morning we had only half an hour 00:01:08

but it's a 00:01:10

spectacularly beautiful place and it's a 00:01:11

lovely day and 00:01:13

and i'm coming back here twice in the 00:01:14

next month so i'll hope 00:01:16

i hope to be able to see some more of it 00:01:17

but it's great to be here 00:01:19

as far as i'm concerned it's amazing 00:01:21

actually so 00:01:23

and i love european cities they're so 00:01:24

unbelievably beautiful 00:01:26

it's it's always i can never it's quite 00:01:28

staggering to come here 00:01:31

always so when i was doing my research 00:01:32

on you 00:01:36

i actually discovered that you and i 00:01:36

are complete opposite in some ways oh 00:01:40

i only eat plants and you all eat 00:01:44

they're the animals i see i see why mr 00:01:47

peterson do you only eat dead animals 00:01:50

well i seem to have some autoimmune 00:01:52

sensitivities that make it difficult for 00:01:55

me to 00:01:57

eat almost anything and so almost 00:01:57

anything 00:02:00

yes so at the moment i just eat beef and 00:02:02

salt and water and have been doing that 00:02:06

for quite a long time 00:02:08

no vegetables at all no nothing except 00:02:09

those three things all right so 00:02:13

and it's been very helpful to me in a 00:02:16

variety of ways 00:02:19

so that's why not it's not out of choice 00:02:21

well i suppose it is because i chose to 00:02:25

do it rather than 00:02:27

not to but but do you feel better with 00:02:28

this diet 00:02:30

yes much better way better in all sorts 00:02:32

of ways 00:02:34

yeah so and 00:02:35

how come you had this healthy issues 00:02:39

earlier in your life yes yes well it 00:02:43

mostly it was a consequence of 00:02:46

my daughter's struggle with a set of 00:02:48

very serious 00:02:50

autoimmune illnesses which she got under 00:02:51

control by 00:02:54

radically restricting her diet like i 00:02:55

eat the same way she eats 00:02:58

and i had some of the same problems that 00:03:00

she did 00:03:03

and so once she had successfully dealt 00:03:04

with them 00:03:07

in a rather miraculous way she suggested 00:03:08

that i try it and 00:03:11

having seen what it did for her i 00:03:13

thought well 00:03:14

i might as well run the experiment and 00:03:16

so i did and it worked and so 00:03:18

i've continued uh 00:03:21

a very funny thing is for 10 years ago 00:03:24

i got the swedish hamburger record 00:03:27

i ate 20 big macs in one hour 00:03:32

and it was that was sick you switched to 00:03:36

plants 00:03:39

[Laughter] 00:03:39

no it's more or three years ago but 00:03:41

yeah i 20 big mess in one hour so that 00:03:44

was the swedish record 00:03:47

yeah i don't think i think this was 18 00:03:48

before 18. yeah yeah 00:03:50

some freak uh-huh so what what in the 00:03:52

world compelled you to do that 00:03:54

apart from the thrill of attainment um 00:03:56

i was growing up in a city like 00:03:59

uh one hour from here and the other guy 00:04:02

that have 00:04:04

had a swedish record also came from the 00:04:05

same city 00:04:08

i see so and in in that small city 00:04:08

called honda 00:04:12

it's like the only thing that they're 00:04:14

famous for so 00:04:16

so you were going to take top players 00:04:17

when i was growing up there 00:04:19

i was like i want to be like jordan 00:04:20

peterson but in this small city 00:04:22

and i want to be a legend and if you 00:04:24

want to be a legend you have to eat many 00:04:26

hamburgers i see i see 00:04:28

well congratulations on having 00:04:29

achievements has sounded complicated has 00:04:31

someone demolished your record yet 00:04:33

um not yet no not yet so maybe you if 00:04:35

you have some time left 00:04:38

yeah i wouldn't be able to buy much meat 00:04:40

beef 00:04:42

just beef just beef not like pure blood 00:04:43

you drink 00:04:46

pure blood no no no only beef 00:04:46

only beef but you have butter or no some 00:04:49

salt no 00:04:52

salt okay salt okay nice 00:04:52

that seems to work yeah pepper not so 00:04:56

well but 00:04:58

thank you i have read your book 12 rules 00:05:00

for life 00:05:03

which is the best selling book in the 00:05:04

world right now 00:05:06

congrats thank you if you were to choose 00:05:08

one rule from your book which one 00:05:12

would that be and why oh it's probably 00:05:15

uh 00:05:19

tell the truth or at least don't lie 00:05:19

and the reason for that is that that's a 00:05:23

very good starting 00:05:25

position to straighten out your life 00:05:26

it's really helpful 00:05:29

to be careful about what you say and to 00:05:31

not 00:05:34

say things that you know are false it's 00:05:34

never or is it like 00:05:38

never would be best or it would be best 00:05:41

yes 00:05:43

i mean it's not a straightforward thing 00:05:44

to do and that doesn't mean you get to 00:05:45

tell the truth to 00:05:47

as a weapon that's not the truth that's 00:05:49

a partial truth masquerading as truth to 00:05:52

use as a weapon 00:05:54

i mean it you have to be sophisticated 00:05:56

about it 00:05:59

but it's very useful to discipline 00:06:00

yourself 00:06:03

not to use your language in a 00:06:04

manipulative manner it doesn't 00:06:07

work it's a very very bad medium to long 00:06:09

term strategy 00:06:12

and your life will become much simpler 00:06:13

in a good way much less anxiety 00:06:17

provoking 00:06:19

and much more exciting and adventurous 00:06:20

if you 00:06:22

just say what you think or even more 00:06:23

importantly 00:06:27

don't say things you know to be untrue 00:06:27

one one 00:06:30

one suggestion i have for people is that 00:06:30

they listen to what they say and 00:06:34

feel how it makes them feel 00:06:37

physically and what you'll see if you 00:06:40

start to pay attention 00:06:42

is that some things you say make you 00:06:44

feel like you're standing on firm ground 00:06:46

and other things that you say 00:06:48

disconnect you and and produce a feeling 00:06:51

of disunity and weakness 00:06:53

and you might think well that's worth it 00:06:55

because i'm manipulating the world in 00:06:56

some particular way to get what i want 00:06:58

and it'll probably work it's like it's 00:07:00

not worth it 00:07:01

it won't work it will kick back and you 00:07:02

will be punished for it 00:07:05

so one of the things that i've learned 00:07:07

as a clinical psychologist which is 00:07:09

actually quite a terrifying 00:07:10

thing to learn is that it's terrifying 00:07:12

when i think of my 00:07:15

own life um i've never seen anyone get 00:07:16

away with anything ever 00:07:19

okay everything you do that you know to 00:07:21

be wrong will 00:07:24

absolutely come back and haunt you and 00:07:25

usually in a magnified way 00:07:27

and so it's very useful to know that 00:07:29

and to be terrified enough of that so 00:07:32

that 00:07:35

you become careful with what you say 00:07:35

it's 00:07:38

and so that's how is that possible 00:07:39

well i don't know if it's possible 00:07:42

perfectly but 00:07:44

you can always chase an ever receding 00:07:45

goal 00:07:48

i mean you can you can certainly not lie 00:07:49

that's possible i mean the reason i 00:07:53

used that formulation in the rule was 00:07:56

because 00:07:58

well you can't exactly tell the truth 00:07:59

because 00:08:01

you're ignorant there's lots of things 00:08:03

you don't know you have your blind spots 00:08:04

and your biases even if you're trying to 00:08:06

work against them 00:08:08

so telling the truth that presupposes 00:08:09

you know the truth 00:08:12

you can strive towards the truth uh 00:08:14

i don't think you can know it but you 00:08:17

can certainly know when you're about to 00:08:19

say something that's patently untrue 00:08:21

by your own definition and you can 00:08:23

certainly not do that 00:08:25

so and that's an excellent place to 00:08:27

start it will it will 00:08:29

if you do that for a number of years 00:08:30

your life will change 00:08:32

radically and and and positively 00:08:34

cool if you had the power to change one 00:08:37

major thing 00:08:40

in the world what would that one thing 00:08:41

be 00:08:44

oh i think we probably covered that is 00:08:45

that i'm going around 00:08:47

everywhere i can suggesting to people 00:08:49

for example that they 00:08:51

adopt more responsibility and that they 00:08:53

try to develop a vision for their life 00:08:55

and that they try to tell the truth 00:08:57

and of all three of those things the 00:08:59

only 00:09:01

idea really that competes with the truth 00:09:02

as 00:09:04

as in terms of potency is the idea that 00:09:05

you should 00:09:08

strive to be positively predisposed 00:09:09

towards 00:09:13

being towards existence despite its 00:09:14

fragility and suffering so 00:09:16

classically speaking the two highest 00:09:19

virtues are truth and love 00:09:21

and it's difficult to put one of those 00:09:23

ahead of the other love means something 00:09:26

like 00:09:29

hoping for hoping and striving 00:09:31

for for the best for things despite the 00:09:34

fact that they're inadequate and damaged 00:09:37

and 00:09:40

and perverse and often malevolent and 00:09:40

that's part of say love your enemies is 00:09:43

well what do you want 00:09:45

for your enemies well you might say you 00:09:46

want their defeat 00:09:48

maybe you want their violent painful 00:09:49

defeat but 00:09:51

it's better to want their transformation 00:09:52

that's that's it's better in all regards 00:09:56

to want that 00:09:59

and to hope for that and to act towards 00:10:00

them in a manner that might facilitate 00:10:02

that so and that's part of 00:10:04

that courageous attitude towards 00:10:07

existence that would manifest itself 00:10:10

in positive regard for for living things 00:10:12

for especially for people yeah so 00:10:16

truth in the service of love that's 00:10:20

that's the right ethic 00:10:22

and it's hard to talk about those things 00:10:23

especially love because the word has 00:10:25

been weakened by misuse 00:10:26

which is why i offered the definition i 00:10:28

offered it's like 00:10:30

it's a it's an attitude of courage to 00:10:32

want the best 00:10:35

for life because life is very cruel 00:10:37

and harsh and it's easy to become turned 00:10:40

against it and bitter 00:10:42

and and there are reasons for that but 00:10:44

it's not helpful 00:10:47

it's wrong despite the fact that there 00:10:48

are reasons for it 00:10:52

bitterness is of no utility so 00:10:53

even though you know i've met many 00:10:56

people 00:10:59

who've had very very hard lives 00:11:00

and to see them become bitter is not a 00:11:03

surprise 00:11:06

but there's no utility whatsoever in it 00:11:07

all it does is make it worse 00:11:09

so grin and barrett so to speak 00:11:11

and that's part of aiming upward 00:11:16

and it is an attitude of courage a 00:11:19

voluntary attitude of courage 00:11:21

and truth serves that goal best so 00:11:23

how could it be otherwise you know you 00:11:27

can think about 00:11:30

you have an option you can either have 00:11:30

reality on your side or against you 00:11:32

if you if you if you abide by the truth 00:11:35

then you have reality on your side 00:11:37

you have reality against you it's like 00:11:41

you think you're going to come 00:11:42

out ahead in that dispute that's not 00:11:44

that's well you only think that if 00:11:47

you've developed a certain amount of 00:11:50

arrogance which is also another very 00:11:51

dangerous thing 00:11:53

i can get away with it it's like no you 00:11:54

can't 00:11:56

you are so outmatched by reality 00:11:57

that there's no contest so 00:12:00

i want to talk a little bit about success 00:12:08

you have met many of the most successful 00:12:10

people on the planet 00:12:12

what makes the difference between people 00:12:14

who can succeed 00:12:16

and can't oh there's a lot of 00:12:18

differences i mean 00:12:20

it takes a lot of rare traits 00:12:21

generally speaking to to push you in the 00:12:24

direction of success 00:12:27

it also depends on what you mean by 00:12:29

success so we could do this two ways we 00:12:30

could go after classical success which 00:12:32

is the sort of thing that you're 00:12:34

talking about perhaps not not like only 00:12:36

money it's like success 00:12:39

when you feel happy and uh you have a 00:12:41

good life 00:12:43

well lord then there's lots of people 00:12:44

who can there's lots of people who 00:12:46

attain that 00:12:47

i mean i think you can talk about 00:12:48

success in their career and build 00:12:49

companies and 00:12:51

be a big hawk star whatever yeah well i 00:12:53

mean 00:12:56

often you need a set of gifts right 00:12:58

that are given to you at birth to be 00:13:02

spectacularly successful at something 00:13:05

say like sports 00:13:07

then discipline that's extraordinarily 00:13:09

useful 00:13:11

intelligence that's very useful the 00:13:13

marriage of those two 00:13:15

i mean if you have two people who are 00:13:17

equally intelligent and one works twice 00:13:18

as hard as the other then the one who 00:13:20

works twice as hard is much more likely 00:13:22

to be successful 00:13:23

creativity is another useful attribute 00:13:25

reciprocity the ability to reciprocate 00:13:29

that's unbelievably useful 00:13:31

almost all the people i know who are 00:13:33

successful have 00:13:34

very broad well-functioning social 00:13:36

networks 00:13:39

so even if they don't know how to do 00:13:40

something they know someone who knows 00:13:41

how to do it 00:13:43

and they've maintained their 00:13:44

relationships with those and they've 00:13:45

done it with integrity 00:13:47

so they're trusted so they have a 00:13:49

network of trusted people around them 00:13:51

who are highly competent 00:13:53

and so there's an ethical there's an 00:13:54

ethical aspect to that because you don't 00:13:56

gather a group of highly useful 00:13:58

people around you to trade with unless 00:14:02

they trust you 00:14:04

and so honesty is a huge part of it and 00:14:05

i mean i've seen people 00:14:07

go into companies that were failing very 00:14:09

dramatically competent people 00:14:12

go in and with nothing other than their 00:14:15

competence and their honesty 00:14:19

turn the companies around completely and 00:14:21

that's very interesting to 00:14:23

to watch and i've consulted in 00:14:25

situations where that's been the case 00:14:26

so honesty is an 00:14:29

honesty i think the only real natural 00:14:33

resource 00:14:35

apart from air is honesty 00:14:36

it's the it's the basis for wealth 00:14:39

because if 00:14:41

two people treat each other honestly 00:14:42

they can take each other at their word 00:14:44

and then they can cooperate 00:14:45

otherwise you know like if i can't trust 00:14:47

you god only knows 00:14:49

what you're up to you're so complicated 00:14:51

that 00:14:53

we can't do something simple and 00:14:54

straightforward and and directed 00:14:56

together because 00:14:58

we're going to spend all of our time 00:14:59

trying to figure out 00:15:02

what in the world is going on and and 00:15:03

this is partly why so much poverty in 00:15:06

the world is actually generated by 00:15:08

corruption 00:15:09

rather than an absolute lack of material 00:15:10

well an absolute lack of material 00:15:15

corruption is a 00:15:18

is is a force that produces poverty like 00:15:19

nothing else 00:15:23

so honesty integrity and then all the 00:15:25

things that you can be gifted with 00:15:29

intelligence hard work 00:15:30

uh the ability to control emotional 00:15:32

stability how important is hard work 00:15:34

oh very important especially at the 00:15:37

uppermost 00:15:39

pinnacles of different careers because 00:15:40

as you move up a hierarchy of competence 00:15:43

let's say 00:15:45

you surround yourself by people who are 00:15:47

more and more like you 00:15:49

right they have everything you have 00:15:50

right and so 00:15:52

maybe at the at the utmost pinnacle you 00:15:54

need a combination of 00:15:57

10 rare things and you better be 00:15:58

firing you better be firing on all 00:16:02

cylinders on all 10 dimensions because 00:16:04

otherwise 00:16:06

someone else will obtain the position 00:16:07

so the higher up you go in whatever you 00:16:11

do 00:16:15

the more crucial it is that you do 00:16:15

everything that you're doing right 00:16:18

people get taken out you know you see 00:16:20

people very frequently 00:16:22

entertainers for example very very 00:16:23

talented people 00:16:26

and disciplined even and very social too 00:16:27

social 00:16:30

sure exactly and and they have a 00:16:30

drinking problem for example or 00:16:32

and they're done they're done it takes 00:16:34

them out often when they're 27 00:16:36

like so 00:16:38

those are all but trustworthiness is a huge part of it 00:16:45

you have to be able to take someone at 00:16:45

their word millions people 00:16:47

see you as a role model what is 00:16:50

your key to success 00:16:53

i think mostly it's it's my the attempts that i've made to um say 00:17:02

what i 00:17:05

believe to be true i mean i have some 00:17:05

talents 00:17:08

i would say i'm uh i'm a i'm a very 00:17:09

effective reader i'm a very fast reader 00:17:12

okay so i can process information 00:17:15

especially verbal information 00:17:18

extremely rapidly so that's been very 00:17:20

helpful to me and they also remember it 00:17:22

um in a strange way like i don't 00:17:25

there's people organized the way they 00:17:28

learn in very different ways 00:17:30

and i have a large 00:17:32

theory of the world let's say that's 00:17:35

fully articulated not fully well 00:17:39

articulated 00:17:41

and when i learn things i plug i plug it 00:17:42

in i plug the pieces that i learn into 00:17:44

it and then i remember those things 00:17:46

some people i've known professors i've 00:17:48

known great professors 00:17:50

remember far more than i do they 00:17:52

remember 00:17:54

the person the name of the person who 00:17:55

wrote the material they remember the 00:17:56

issue of the journal that it was 00:17:58

was published in they have more of a 00:18:00

library-like 00:18:02

memory i'm not like that i i have a body 00:18:03

of knowledge that i can slot things into 00:18:07

and that's one of the things that 00:18:10

enables me to lecture extemporaneously 00:18:11

because i have this 00:18:13

large structure of knowledge that i can 00:18:14

walk through in different ways and i'm 00:18:16

constantly 00:18:18

rearranging it like a human google well 00:18:19

i suppose 00:18:22

except that it's it's themed it's more 00:18:24

like a musical piece in some sense 00:18:26

because it has a structure and and so 00:18:28

i'm tinkering with different parts of it 00:18:30

and sometimes 00:18:32

there are pieces that are radically 00:18:33

revised but it's more like a computer 00:18:35

file system that might be a way you know 00:18:37

you have your own personal file system 00:18:38

and everything's related in some sense 00:18:41

to everything else and 00:18:42

like i can remember i don't know if this 00:18:44

is common or not but i don't know how 00:18:46

many 00:18:48

files i have in my computer maybe 250 00:18:48

000 i know where every one of them is 00:18:52

okay 00:18:55

so and it's because they're all 00:18:55

thematically related so right 00:18:57

and and it's the same with the body of 00:18:59

knowledge that i've built and so when i 00:19:01

read something i just add to what i 00:19:02

already know and then i know where all 00:19:04

the information is 00:19:05

but i forget lots of what i read lots 00:19:06

lots of 00:19:09

majority of what i read and what are 00:19:10

your weaknesses then 00:19:11

do you have any i'm not very 00:19:13

mathematically intelligent i would say 00:19:15

i mean not too bad i'm above somewhat 00:19:17

above average but i've had students who 00:19:19

are mathematically gifted and they're so 00:19:21

much better 00:19:23

at mathematical reasoning than me that 00:19:24

we're not even in the same conceptual 00:19:26

universe 00:19:27

so that's definitely a weakness um 00:19:28

so that's an intellectual weakness 00:19:32

i have a bit of a temper and that has 00:19:35

its advantages but 00:19:39

but it has its disadvantages i have 00:19:40

suffered more with uh mood control than 00:19:44

might be optimal 00:19:46

so i've had that take me out for 00:19:48

times in my career where i wasn't 00:19:51

functioning as effectively as i could 00:19:53

because my mood wasn't regulated well 00:19:55

you're depressed yeah yeah although that 00:19:57

seems to have been treated quite well by 00:20:00

this diet 00:20:02

so i think it was an inflammatory 00:20:04

condition there's lots of reasons for 00:20:05

depression so i think it was a side 00:20:07

effect of an autoimmune disorder 00:20:08

but that took a very very long time to 00:20:11

figure out and so there were times many 00:20:13

times in my career where i wasn't 00:20:15

operating 00:20:16

with peak efficiency so and 00:20:17

that's made me more irritable and 00:20:20

sometimes prone to 00:20:23

well perhaps prone to anger in ways that haven't been productive 00:20:30

those are the primary weaknesses let's say that i've had to contend with 00:20:36

um there's others i mean when i was a 00:20:38

kid i really like to drink 00:20:40

so it took me a while to get that under 00:20:41

control 00:20:43

that again had its advantages 00:20:44

disadvantages but as a long-term 00:20:46

strategy it wasn't a good one 00:20:48

what else i'm i'm prone to say yes to virtually everything and so 00:20:56

because if something comes along and i'm 00:20:59

interested in it then i want to pursue 00:21:00

it it's a that's a consequence of 00:21:02

do you feel stressed up or is it well if 00:21:04

i'm on top of things it's great because 00:21:06

it's a never-ending vista of opportunity 00:21:08

but if my mood tilts then i have way 00:21:10

way too many things to do and i'm sort 00:21:12

of crushed under the weight of it 00:21:14

so so that that can be a disadvantage 00:21:16

and then um it keeps me 00:21:19

i don't know it's the downside of having 00:21:23

an entrepreneurial temperament 00:21:24

you know people think that creativity is 00:21:26

an untrammeled benefit but it's not 00:21:29

because it tangles you up in things and 00:21:31

those things can fail 00:21:34

and even if they don't you have to keep 00:21:36

them going once you're committed to them 00:21:37

and so i suppose i have a proclivity to 00:21:39

be over committed 00:21:40

now i i've been able to 00:21:42

deal with that because i also play a 00:21:45

game 00:21:48

constantly with myself which is i'm 00:21:49

always trying to figure out how to do 00:21:52

things 00:21:53

in the maximally efficient manner and so 00:21:54

i can usually figure out how to do 00:21:56

multiple things simultaneously in a way 00:21:58

that addresses all of them 00:22:00

can you give some example i'm recording 00:22:01

all my lectures and i'm using them as 00:22:04

the first draft for much of what i'm 00:22:06

writing 00:22:07

and i do a different lecture every night 00:22:08

so that i'm using the lectures 00:22:09

as the grounds for for much of what i'm 00:22:12

going to be writing next 00:22:14

and so that way i and for and for blog 00:22:16

posting and potentially for 00:22:18

newspaper articles and for the book as 00:22:20

well yeah and for the book yeah and 00:22:23

and so and so um 00:22:25

i built this system called the 00:22:28

self-authoring 00:22:30

it's on selfauthoring.com and it's a 00:22:32

series of exercises that 00:22:35

are designed to help people write an 00:22:37

autobiography and to 00:22:39

assess their personality faults and 00:22:40

virtues and to make a plan for the 00:22:42

future and 00:22:43

it really works quite well we've done a 00:22:44

fair bit of empirical research 00:22:46

validating it 00:22:47

and that forced me i built a business 00:22:49

out of that and that forced me to learn 00:22:52

how to do sales and marketing and 00:22:54

customer support 00:22:56

and to to learn to not program software 00:22:57

because i can't program unfortunately 00:23:00

which is another weakness 00:23:02

but to design it and and so that's 00:23:04

that's another example of efficiency i 00:23:07

would say 00:23:09

uh i think we can listen to a short clip a viral clip 00:23:15

the there you talk about scandinavia oh 00:23:16

oh 00:23:20

oh oh well men and women won't sort 00:23:20

themselves into the same categories if 00:23:22

you leave them alone to do it off their 00:23:24

own accord 00:23:25

i've already seen that in scandinavia 00:23:26

it's 20 to one 00:23:28

female nurses to male something like 00:23:29

that it might not be quite that extreme 00:23:31

and approximately the same 00:23:33

male engineers to female engineers and 00:23:35

that's a consequence of the free choice 00:23:37

of men and women in the societies that 00:23:39

have gone farther than any other 00:23:41

societies 00:23:43

to make gender equality the purpose of 00:23:43

the law those are inerratical 00:23:46

differences 00:23:48

you can eradicate them with tremendous 00:23:48

social pressure and 00:23:50

tyranny but if you leave men and women 00:23:52

to make their own choices you will not 00:23:54

get equal outcome 00:23:55

you said that we in scandinavia has the 00:23:56

most developed gender 00:23:58

equality why do you believe that 00:24:00

ratio of men and women differ here the 00:24:03

most 00:24:06

oh because the the data on that's 00:24:07

crystal clear as 00:24:09

as your societies become more 00:24:10

egalitarian the biological differences 00:24:12

between men and women in temperament and 00:24:14

interest magnify 00:24:16

it's the most perhaps it's not the most 00:24:18

well 00:24:20

validated finding in the social sciences 00:24:21

because that's probably the relationship 00:24:23

between iq and 00:24:25

academic achievement but it's probably 00:24:26

number two or number three 00:24:29

it was being replicated three times in 00:24:31

the last month so and the relationship 00:24:32

is actually extremely large there was a 00:24:34

paper in science that was just 00:24:36

that's the best scientific journal in 00:24:38

the world by the way that was just 00:24:39

published last week showing that 00:24:41

there's a massive positive relationship 00:24:43

between the wealth 00:24:45

and egalitarian nature of a country and 00:24:47

the magnitude of difference in 00:24:49

preference 00:24:51

between men and women so and the reason 00:24:52

for that seems to be that 00:24:54

there are two reasons that men and women 00:24:56

differ let's say 00:24:59

one is cultural and one is biological 00:25:00

and when you flatten out the cultural 00:25:02

differences 00:25:04

the biological differences maximize 00:25:05

so you're not going to make women and 00:25:08

men more alike by making society more 00:25:10

egalitarian you're going to make them 00:25:12

more different 00:25:14

and that's fine as far as i'm concerned 00:25:15

it means because it might be that in 00:25:17

optimally structured society people were 00:25:19

free 00:25:21

to choose what their temperament 00:25:22

inclined them towards 00:25:24

it's conceivable that that would be 00:25:26

better for them and better for everyone 00:25:27

else 00:25:29

you know now we might end up with some 00:25:30

trouble possibly 00:25:32

if we have um occupations that become 00:25:33

entirely dominated by one gender you 00:25:36

know 00:25:39

so but well we'll see how the sorting 00:25:40

takes place 00:25:43

and that that'll occur over the next 30 00:25:44

years something like that 00:25:46

well it'll continue after that but um 00:25:48

we'll solve those problems 00:25:51

hypothetically as they come along 00:25:53

so what are the main difference between 00:25:55

men and women that can never been 00:25:59

changed 00:26:02

well there's morphological differences 00:26:03

like physical differences 00:26:05

that that are part and parcel of our 00:26:07

genetic heritage obviously 00:26:09

genitalia would be one of them secondary 00:26:11

sex characteristics 00:26:13

upper body strength so men on average 00:26:15

are much stronger in their upper body 00:26:18

women have a bit of an edge in stamina 00:26:20

they have a bit of an edge in verbal 00:26:22

ability men seem to have a slight edge 00:26:24

in spatial ability 00:26:27

although that's somewhat debatable but 00:26:28

it looks it looks it looks 00:26:30

relatively solid women 00:26:32

are more enthusiastic men are more 00:26:35

assertive 00:26:37

that's extraversion women are higher in 00:26:38

withdrawal and volatility those are both 00:26:41

aspects of trait neuroticism which is 00:26:42

the proclivity for negative emotion 00:26:44

so women experience more negative 00:26:46

emotion than men that kicks in at 00:26:48

puberty 00:26:50

um and the difference isn't massive but 00:26:51

it's 00:26:53

it's it's large enough to produce about 00:26:54

a threefold difference in the rates of 00:26:56

depression and anxiety 00:26:58

worldwide between men and women men are 00:27:00

less agreeable 00:27:03

which is part of what accounts for the 00:27:04

uh ten to one 00:27:06

ratio of men to women who are 00:27:07

incarcerated because that's the best 00:27:09

personality predictor of 00:27:11

of criminal behavior um 00:27:13

women are more aesthetically oriented 00:27:16

and men are more interested in ideas 00:27:17

that's on the openness side 00:27:19

men are more interested in things on 00:27:21

average and women are more interested in 00:27:24

people and that's actually 00:27:26

the largest psychological difference 00:27:27

that we know of between men and women 00:27:29

and that's a major determinant of 00:27:31

occupational choice 00:27:33

okay and so those are that's that's a 00:27:34

good summary of the differences 00:27:37

iq there's there's not much difference 00:27:38

especially at the average 00:27:41

there's some indication that the iq 00:27:43

distribution for men might be flatter 00:27:45

which means that there would be more men 00:27:47

at the lower end and more men at the 00:27:49

upper end 00:27:50

okay now there's some dispute about that 00:27:51

but i think the bulk of the evidence 00:27:53

suggests that that might be the case 00:27:54

all right so but why is the 00:27:56

west of majority of crimes done by men 00:27:59

men are more aggressive they have more 00:28:02

testosterone is it 00:28:04

no no not necessarily although although 00:28:06

testosterone seems to have something to 00:28:08

do with it testosterone is more 00:28:09

associated with confidence and 00:28:11

competence 00:28:12

they're more aggressive but well high 00:28:14

testosterone guys aren't necessarily 00:28:16

more aggressive 00:28:18

i think it might be that badly 00:28:19

socialized high testosterone guys are 00:28:21

more 00:28:23

aggressive in the anti-social way but 00:28:23

testosterone itself is more associated 00:28:26

with dominance than with aggression but 00:28:28

why 00:28:29

are men more aggressive than women 00:28:29

they're bigger they're stronger those are things that work 00:28:36

the the advantages to being dominant are 00:28:39

more 00:28:41

potent for men because women tend to 00:28:42

choose men who are higher up in status 00:28:44

hierarchies 00:28:46

so the the well i'll give an example 00:28:47

here i can give you an example 00:28:50

and this is a good example um this was 00:28:51

discovered by psychologists working at 00:28:54

mcmaster university in in canada mc 00:28:56

martin and daley and they were looking 00:28:58

at the relationship between inequality 00:29:01

and crime 00:29:03

so in in geographical areas where 00:29:04

there's a lot of inequality 00:29:08

there's a lot more male criminality and 00:29:09

it's almost all 00:29:11

within race male criminality and it's 00:29:12

almost all a consequence of 00:29:15

dominance dispute so now 00:29:17

women are selected men are selected by 00:29:20

women 00:29:23

in part because of their status and so 00:29:23

men have 00:29:26

a fair bit of motivation to acquire 00:29:27

status 00:29:30

and so here's a way of acquiring status 00:29:31

in a high crime neighborhood high 00:29:33

inequality neighborhood in chicago 00:29:35

have a dominance dispute with someone 00:29:37

from another gang okay you're both armed 00:29:39

one of you dies okay now is it murder 00:29:41

or is it self-defense it's plea bargain 00:29:45

to self-defense 00:29:47

you end up in prison for two years you 00:29:48

get out in less than 18 months 00:29:50

your street credibility goes way up the 00:29:52

net 00:29:54

positive consequence across time is is 00:29:55

the net consequence across 00:29:57

a reasonable span of time not your whole 00:29:59

life is positive 00:30:01

you attain status increase so there's 00:30:03

situations where aggression 00:30:05

even untrammeled aggression puts you 00:30:07

higher up in the 00:30:09

mating hierarchy so that's that's one 00:30:10

reason 00:30:13

so aggression physical aggression 00:30:15

physical competition physically 00:30:18

aggressive competition 00:30:20

among women produces no net positive 00:30:22

improvement 00:30:24

in mating opportunity so 00:30:25

right we do like this we jump into the last three questions in swedish three 00:30:33

sister frogger what is the best 00:30:37

advice you have ever received in your 00:30:41

life 00:30:44

maybe from your wife well i've received 00:30:46

lots of good advice from my wife 00:30:49

um i think it's possible that it was 00:30:51

advice for my father 00:30:54

and he was very careful to 00:30:55

insist that i didn't um 00:30:59

what's the right word 00:31:06

to keep the arrogance down not to brag and and and that was very good advice i 00:31:15

would say 00:31:19

so what are the best tips for 00:31:20

get a happier life 00:31:25

decide what that would mean it's not going to happen randomly 00:31:33

i talked about the future authoring 00:31:35

program so what it does is invite people 00:31:37

okay so here 00:31:39

you want a better life here's a way to 00:31:40

have it well first of all 00:31:41

decide what better means for you 00:31:44

so and so you have to have a discussion 00:31:47

with yourself as if you were someone you 00:31:49

cared about 00:31:51

so now we decide you're taking care of 00:31:52

yourself three years down the road 00:31:54

you get to have what you want but you 00:31:56

have to figure out what it 00:31:59

is okay so do you want an intimate 00:32:00

relationship and if so 00:32:02

what kind of relationship how are you 00:32:04

going to structure it 00:32:06

what about your family you know are you 00:32:07

going to get along with your siblings 00:32:09

and your parents are going to have kids 00:32:10

is that going to be part of your life 00:32:12

what are you going to do for your career 00:32:14

or your job 00:32:16

how are you going to educate yourself 00:32:17

and keep your education updated 00:32:18

how are you going to resist the sort of 00:32:20

temptations that take people down 00:32:22

how are you going to take care of 00:32:24

yourself mentally and physically what 00:32:25

are you gonna do with your time outside 00:32:27

of work that's productive and engaging 00:32:28

imagine you could optimize all that okay 00:32:30

so then you need a vision okay 00:32:33

what would my life be like if i had that 00:32:34

and what would it look like well then 00:32:37

you have to make the right sacrifices to 00:32:38

get there 00:32:40

you need to make a strategy and so you 00:32:41

lay out that strategy and then start to 00:32:43

pursue it 00:32:45

and and progress incrementally right 00:32:46

little better tomorrow than you were 00:32:50

yesterday and compare yourself to 00:32:52

yourself which is rule 4 in my book 00:32:54

that'll work you'll be in way better 00:32:57

shape very very rapidly 00:33:00

so but you can't just wait around for 00:33:02

happiness to appear 00:33:04

i mean unless you define it and pursue 00:33:05

it 00:33:08

i mean things don't happen good things 00:33:08

tend not to happen randomly right things 00:33:12

fall apart 00:33:15

randomly so you need a vision you need a 00:33:15

plan for the future 00:33:18

and you know you don't want to make it 00:33:20

rigid and tyrannical and 00:33:22

you have to do it in negotiation with 00:33:24

yourself 00:33:26

but it's unbelievably effective so 00:33:27

do that that works very good advice 00:33:31

if you could should um 00:33:35

if you could recommend one book to 00:33:38

everybody 00:33:41

and you can't say your own 12 rules for 00:33:42

life 00:33:44

which one would you rec would you man's 00:33:45

search for meaning is pretty good 00:33:48

viktor frankl mount association man 00:33:50

search for meaning 00:33:52

yeah it's good it's it's not very long 00:33:53

it's 00:33:56

pretty accessible it's deep it's 00:33:56

and it's it's fundamentally 00:34:00

accurate i would say it's a it's a 00:34:03

profound book 00:34:05

and every and everyone can read it i 00:34:06

think so 00:34:08

what is it about um the person who wrote 00:34:10

it viktor frankl was a psychiatrist who 00:34:13

spent time in auschwitz 00:34:15

and so it's a discussion about 00:34:17

totalitarianism 00:34:19

and meaning and personal responsibility 00:34:20

and it's 00:34:23

brilliant very profound meaningful 00:34:24

serious uplifting book even though it's 00:34:28

very very dark it's a great book it's 00:34:31

it's been a 00:34:33

it's been a best-selling book for 00:34:34

decades because of that and if somebody 00:34:38

that listened to this podcast wants to 00:34:42

get in contact with you 00:34:44

or follow you which platform do you 00:34:45

recommend twitter 00:34:48

no no twitter no twitter i would say 00:34:49

youtube 00:34:51

youtube yeah or my or my instagram 00:34:52

i do have an instagram account um people 00:34:56

can follow that 00:34:59

i have a facebook account um but if you 00:35:00

want to 00:35:03

know more about what i'm thinking about 00:35:03

let's say 00:35:06

youtube is by far the best however you 00:35:07

could go to my website 00:35:09

which is jordanbpeterson.com and it has 00:35:11

my blog 00:35:13

there so you could read that there's 00:35:14

lots of lecture transcripts there as 00:35:16

well as things that i've written 00:35:18

my podcast is there that's another and i 00:35:19

put 00:35:22

many of my youtube lectures come up as 00:35:22

podcasts 00:35:25

and so if you like podcasts better than 00:35:25

youtube videos then that's a good 00:35:27

platform but the best portal all things 00:35:29

considered is probably the website 00:35:31

but youtube is really where i've mostly 00:35:33

concentrated 00:35:36

and the website is jordan b peterson.com 00:35:37

nice it's an honor to have you here thank you mr jordan peterson thank you 00:35:45

very much 00:35:47

my pleasure thanks again for the 00:35:48

[Music] 00:35:50

invitation 00:35:54